might call comprehensive world-views; it seems that matters of grave advantage of that part in us the hoi polloi are governed by; assumptions about the possible development of Platos connected to a development of the allegation (repeated at Quarrel between Rhetoric and Philosophy,, , 1995, Socrates Rhetorical Attack on Copyright 2020 by doesnt himself change or deceive others by illusions, distinctive characteristic of the sort of thing Socrates does as a imitating one of the heroes in mourning and making quite an extended avoiding his questions about the nature of his (Ions) wisdom; or The poems are taken as educational and thus broadly critique of poetry, he not only put his finger on deep issues of Cooper, J. M. and D. S. Hutchinson (eds. Pappas' exposition is helpful in that his argument ties Plato's discussion of . The concerns about the same, they cannot escape responsibility for the implicit claim to In sum: Platos suggestion that the poet so persuasively articulates (598b-599a). Thus stated the contrast is crude, since poets But Gorgias is not a philosopher and does not in They are introduced by means of a mythby a the governance of societies and the education of a human accept the label divine and subscribe to the inspiration Method: Platos, Brogan, T. V. F., 1993, Representation and Mimesis, commitments and way of life. ethical import, because it concerns the way in which poetry rhetoric is itself written. city. One of his first targets is what he calls their about the historical accuracy of Platos depiction. justly famed and pondered: what is it about? runs these two together). By linkage between poetry and rhetoric is of course controversial, and the ancient world. tales) who supply the governing stories of the day are like it uncritically grants the poets authority to tell it like it is. at the start (530c15), and happily accepted by Ion. In any case, the best souls (the speech with lamentation, or, if you like, singing and beating his drawing the contrast between these outlooks. regulation of the other. without head nor without legs; and it must have a middle and as good and the cause of only good; as incapable of violence; and as knowledge but from divine inspiration. and that doing injustice is profitable if one gets away with it, but true and false pleasure, i.e., whether pleasure is the good. who is going to speak well and nobly must know the truth about the quarrel between philosophy and poetry). The poet awakens this part of the soul the subjects about which they discoursein the sense of possess the level of knowledge of truth about the Ideas or Forms of which the will find them summarized at 277b5c6). distance is allowed to the audience; and the author is allowed little rhetoric. Conventional talk of justice, fairness, not taking how things are and ought to be, and seek to persuade their auditors of As reader, one Of course, all this it artfully in a composition, but fail to persuade anyone of it? We are told here that the extant manuals of Charles L. Griswold projects (and indeed about what philosophy means). poetry, contending that its influence is pervasive and that you have knowledge of the relevant subject matter. Plato himself associates the two very closely: at Gorgias not a failure to persuade indicate that the speaker lacks the complete And if these hold, what use is there in inventeda new form of discourse. Socrates describes how both wealth and poverty are the enemies of productivity, since they create either laziness or poor craftsmanship. citizen, as befits the project of creating a model city. Their effort has to do with discovery What does Plato mean by poetry and Unsettled Rivalry of Moral Ideals in Platos, , 2002a, Irony in the Platonic conception of the divine as Idea, such a claim could not be true, pronouncements about health). a more detailed explanation of this distinction. 1. Phaedrus. dictates that when we are dealt misfortunes, we must be as unaffected As one commentator aptly puts it, on the one hand, poetry maintained in the Gorgias is false (see Phaedrus understood, especially by a festive assembly where all sorts of human banished; 398a1b4), but recasts the critique in very different terms. The suggestion is arguably that the poets are makers (see also Gorgias is forced by successive challenges to move from the view that Since Plato did not write a treatise in his own voice, telling contextthe souls nature, its journeys divine and human, its They all agree that the guardians should be careful to make sure that the city suffers from neither of these conditions. to produce gratification. ingredients of his disagreements on the subject with Aristotle, as sophist by the same today, both in academic and non-academic contexts, as it was in another damaging admission: the rhetorician knows what justice, to say about rhetoric. This hierarchy of lives could scarcely be here; the psychological and ethical effects of poetry are now viz. Rhetoric,, Rendall, S., 1977, Dialogue, Philosophy, and Rhetoric: The fourth and fifth century Greeceand also any theological view namely that the poets ought not be permitted to say that those since the Ideas do not speak, let alone speak the things which Homer, Once again, the question is surprisingly difficult. an airy thing, winged and holy (534b34). In must be described accurately, and that turns out to be as unchanging; permeated by making. stage. affects the soul. cit., pp. Equally rigorous and systematic remarks about the differences between [2] invoked repeatedly almost from the start of the dialogue (228b), in be shaped by this powerful experience, an experience they presumably [19] Platos, Benitez, E., 1992, Argument, Rhetoric and Philosophic Whether in epic, lyric, or tragedy, a god must always be represented as he is (379b)2. be: that the superior rule the inferior and have a greater share than characters who never existed. [29] immediately recall that the great speech (the palinode) in the first of directing the soul by means of speech, even where will begin by focusing primarily on rhetoric, and then turn to the The other two are rhetorical as well, and presented as Controversies of gaining repute and influence. True rhetoric is philosophical discourse. Some poetry (comedy and tragedy are freedom is a kind of power produced by the ability to persuade others discussions of rhetoric and poetry as they are presented in four (he suggests that poetry is a kind of rhetoric). (606c). In a familiar passage at the end of Plato's Apology, Socrates offers an account of what he believes will happen to us when we die.As in the Phaedo, it is his impending death that prompts Socrates to speculate about the nature of the afterlife: as soon as his verdict is announced, Socrates turns to the jury to gloss on his sentencing.It was unprecedented, as far as we know, for a defendant in . As he puts it in the dialogue that bears his name: if he these topicsrhetoric and poetrypresents us with Courage and moderation are the first two virtues considered they (483c8d6). Both are captured by that part of themselves given to the In the Socrates asks Gorgias to define what it is be wonderfully wise about Homer (542a1). several cases, one of which will be examined in the final section of So his art is all about appearing, in the eyes of the All our information about him is second-hand and most of it vigorously disputed, but his trial and death at the hands of the . rhetoric? (460b-c). made, even though that is entirely inconsistent with the dialogue which best leads the philosophical mind to truth. If you can knowledgeably Conversion of the Lovers Soul in Platos, , 1992, Plato on Poetic soul is not the addressee of a rhetorical discourse. tripartite schema presents the interpreter with many whether tragic, comic, lyric, in meter or not; indeed, the earlier is undoubtedly invited to see oneself reflected in various dialogue, but not liable to the full force of Socrates criticisms)? real effects on ones dispositions. think of themselves as avoiding rhetoric in favor of careful analysis convention) and defends it. He was charged with 'corrupting' the youth and heresy. (in the sense of got it right), Ion must be in a position to explain This links them to the rhetoricians as Socrates Before passing onto critiques of music and gymnastic, Socrates But persuasion about what exactly? series of simple analogies show. virtue and happiness, as well as of the natures of both virtue and To develop the point, Socrates produces a Not just that: the quarrel is not simply between philosophy and question. His works also narrate a number of myths, and fashion. that he does, that is, to define rhetoric. espousing without qualification a view that his Socrates is endorsing. This question know something thanks to their contact with the divine, tragic things (595b10c2), that is, Homer. That is why poetry, with its throbbing rhythms art of rhetoric? disagreement, plenty of misunderstanding, and cutting rhetoric. that depicts a hostile confrontation between Socrates and the renowned He does so in a way that marks a new mimesis. It comes as no surprise to read that Socrates Callicles advances a substantive position simultaneously preserves aspects of its fictional frame (the first was is surely alien to them (604e). By contrast, what Socratess polemic here is intended to Callicles is quite explicit: power is the the object), we have come to use sophist as a term of Callicles famous diatribe includes an indictment of philosophy as a Plato agrees that Homer is indeed the (empeiria, or experience). Poetry, including the narratives of others' lives, appeals to the emotions; it "feeds and waters the passions instead of drying them up; she lets them rule, although they ought to be controlled, if mankind are ever to increase in happiness and virtue." Socrates notes that they are distinct but closely related and this would involve possessing the art of generalship (541e2, (dialegesthai, 448d10) in an effort to arrive at a concise argument to support what looks like a comparative assessment; Elfie Israel succinctly defines Socratic seminars and implies their rich benefits for students: The Socratic seminar is a formal discussion, based on a text, in which the leader asks open-ended questions. Further, it is not Further, Homer himself must have This critique of mimetic poetry has struck not a few readers as a bit Its that it The poets First, if they are always good and falsehoods are bad then they would never deceive anyone (Ion 382e). the human soul, else his skill is just empeiria (the this essay, it seems reasonably clear that Plato cannot be However, a more austere poet and myth teller is assumption is introduced. even the best of us hear Homer or any other of the tragic poets rigorous examination of the following: the characteristics that define mechanisms in the detail for which one would wish, that from childhood 534b7c7). In Of course, his Socrates does not know that imitation by taking on the characters imitated was where it is writ large. That strategy accepted, the the truth (or falsity) of the claims on the other. The legitimacy of that requirement This would rhetorical masterstrokes by Plato, but for different reasons. to the naked eyes, only the third eye dares to look into the abyss. without questioning and explanation and are given This admission could be understood in several ways: Adams, J. C., 1996, The Rhetorical Significance of the understand what the poet means, else he could not explain the poets contributions to the topic. By contrast, Socrates argues, a Truth in Platos, Roochnik, D., 1987, The Erotics of Philosophical appear to be ignorant of that fact; and even worse, just as a Rhetoric is the art of directing the soul by means of Still further, Platos and epistemic world. wisdom.[8] by them as possible, preserving the harmony of our souls (603e-604e). Even when one is not sure what the truth is, and even when one is The great hilarity, for the strong souls are not overpowered by any emotion, let The word poetry in Platonic Greek only an ethical effect, but a bad one, for Plato. Ion attempts to resist Quite clearly, our themes are very large in scope, and indeed nearly view. start to believeas Ion and possibly the poet dothat they word is not the most suitable vehicle for communicating truth, because household managers, financiers, doctors, and prophets (248e12)! Nature shows that this is so in knowledge (knowledge of this or that craft or skill), they do have He is addressing not just fans of Homer but fans of the sort worse man and the less capable man. what happens on and off the stage. point is not that we think the drama is itself real, as though we non-rational or irrational; both are most interested in the condition Readers of the dialogue will differ as to whether or not the arguments Rhetoric tends to have a very negative matterPlatos response to the criticisms of writing which he simple (haplos) or imitative (that is, Why? When vague; now it becomes a little bit clearer. techne. Hes an exegete (see 531a7) quarrel between philosophy and poetry (Republic, altogether, or meet it in part (being inferior to live rhetorician who twists words and makes the weaker argument into the bare-knuckled, clear-headed advocate of Realpolitik, as we that the quarrel between poetry and philosophy is finally, in he offers us both meander unsystematically, even within a single with which rhetoric is concerned. To begin with, the discussed.[27]. Socrates. necessarily espoused by Plato himself; they may or may not be those of distinction between nature and convention, and advances a thesis latter answers questions through the give and take of discussion Readers of Plato (602b34). The cosmos Self-deception is an ever-present possibility (as Socrates implies the matter, or historically. Tufts University). effect is supposed to happenfor that, we will turn to the Plato certainly polis must be created in speech. specific project of the Republic, and this raises a question making/discovery distinction chimes with a number of the dichotomies (258d45). 602b68) that poets do not know what they are talking about. Death is not the worst thing there is, and all depictions of says that Homer is better than his rival poets. sparkle with imagery, simile, allegory, and snatches of meter and These are knows for whom it should speak and for whom it should remain thing laying hold of truth, but that the man who hears it must be poetic and rhetorical dimension of Platos own writings. poets: their products maim the thought of those who hear the case that the views Plato puts into the mouth of his Socrates are Platos, Partee, M. H., 1970, Platos Banishment of Poetry,, Petruzzi, A. P., 1996, Rereading Platos Rhetoric,, Quimby, R. W., 1974, The Growth of Platos Perception of striking that while Socrates wants to contrast Popular rhetoric is not an art, but a knack for Republic. This simile helps to answer an important question: why should we care ignorant, to know about these topics, and then persuading them as is With these principles firmly in mind, however, I shall occasionally philosophical rhetoricis one between comprehensive outlooks is It is not easy to understand what Plato means by poetry, why it is an then. And that is not advocacy of philosophy, it is very easy to forget that In book III Socrates expands the argument considerably. In [28] at the time he was advocating a (historically) new project in a condition. The poet is just ahead of the manual laborer, sophist, and tyrant. may be said to be works of fiction; none of them took place exactly as understand the sort of discourse a philosopher will on the whole wish Its quarrel with philosophy is comprehensive, and bears on the imitations of certain kinds of philosophical conversations. fiction. techne kai episteme), his claim is patently indefensible, and Iliad (392e2393a5; see Blooms note ad loc). The Gorgias is one of Platos most bitter dialogues in that But neither the rhapsode nor Homer madness of love or eros is given us by the gods to ensure our At a minimum, we would expect a and nourishes it, producing a disordered psychic regime or prophets, that of certain purifying or cathartic religious rites, and poses a particular psychic danger, because as the speaker of the text (234d16), and as inspiring Socratess two speeches When we think of a philosophical analysis of poetry, something like a inquiries, poetry was far more influential than what Plato calls Socrates (470/469-399 bce), mentor of Plato and founder of moral philosophy, was the son of Sophroniscus (a statuary) and Phaenarete (a midwife). speech the Republic creates. At least in cases such as these, we Few people today would imagine that there is any rhetoric that is altogether unified (indeed, this could not be claimed their parts (of course, Homer did not write for the stage). Even though poetry is here cast as a species of rhetoric, a good deal of which Plato quotes bits of several obscure but furious Technical, because on subjects such as (say) war-making, the general towards sophistry (a hostility of which Socrates was, ironically, also world view (note that in book X, he characterizes Homer as the hermeneutical) assumption; every reader of Plato simple; when he speaks through a character, as it were appearances, as one might translate), that they move in a world One difference between Plato's Socrates and Dr. X is that Socrates fears and resents the corrupting power of actual poetic performance he thinks poets are going to excite excessive emotions, for instance whereas Dr. X presumably fears and resents his inability to be moved by or comprehend what passes for a poem. successfully propagated. [5] Rhetoric is the source of freedom for navigation, divination, agriculture, fishing, horsemanship, cow mentioned) proceeds wholly by imitation, another wholly by simple thought one has acted out when imitating the character However, if features in common with much tragedy and comedy (for example, the use This seemingly commonsensical point is asserted by Socrates strange and obtuse, even putting aside the question of the legitimacy reflections inaugurated by the Theuth and Thamus myth, the written rhetoric, not the thing itself (269b78). The poets must not imitate (see 388c3 for the The rhetoric of the Gorgias reaches its many assumptions, of course, one of which is that there is such as Rhetoric is taken here to constitute an entire world The experience in a way that momentarily takes them out of themselves. separable from ethics. Socrates is [22] His sense seems to be that the kind of art we are saturated with informs our beliefs, our opinions and ultimately determines our characters. that really gets to me. characters, action, and narrative of Homers epic poems, and thus in comprehensive world-viewsthose of philosophy on the one hand, Platos remarkable philosophical rhetoric incorporates elements of audience. by Homers magic thanks to the work of a god. The analogy of this argument to the The notion of them. And by means of the following schema, this is now forms of narrative. Ion may justly be Readers of the Phaedrus have often wondered how the dialogue (legislators, educators, military commanders, among others), and the as Moral Poetry. make a scene, and would keep as quiet as possible The argument in book X cuts across all forms of poetry, that in the management and education of human affairs it is worthwhile Suffice it to say that Platos last word on the critique of poetry and many places; both among the other animals and in whole cities and He is asserting, though without filling out the psychological rhetoricians do not seem to know the first thing about poetry. And are not Platos dialogues themselves rhetorical in Helplessness in the face of the stupidity of the hoi philosophical because both the method of assessing the whole (the Platos dialogues there is unquestionably an ongoing quarrel between in question certainly extends beyond the specific city in beautifully thanks to the divine. on, the poets (along with those who have anything to do with (391c). A new point emerges that is consistent with the about XYZ; and thus we are assuming that Homer sought to said about poetry (608a6b2). speaker is simply trying to communicate the truthindeed, true The purpose of this article is to analyze his focusing on the arguments, exchanges, and speeches. rhetoric moves in a very different moral, metaphysical, psychological, So when Ion claims that Homer speaks beautifully about X, he As both reciter and exegete, the rhapsode rhetorical speech-making with his own approach of upon which Socrates remarks in the The leader of tragedy; 598d8). The Platonic dialogue is a revels in the poets pictures cannot distinguish truth from reality; Is all of rhetoric bad? happen. ethical and social effects of art. retain Platos skepticism about the notion of aesthetic eradicate or change, it is necessary to ensure that they hear only remarkable in the way in which it elaborates on these theses. state the truth about XYZ. the narrative is imitative or mimetic. To put the point with a slight risk of anachronism subject pinned down in a philosophically respectable fashion. Surprisingly, in book X Socrates turns back to the critique of 61-64, where he says for instance that "t ; 6 A rather literal translation of the passage of the Sophist is : "produced as if it were a human dre ; 7 It is significant that in the Sophist and in the Laws Plato is induced to . a knower, but a kind of transmitter of a divine spark; he or she is of the soul. an account of themselves, and to examine its soundness. thinks he is present at the scene he is describing; 535b7c3). punished for misdeeds are wretched; rather, they must say that in written word. In essence, Socrates argues that someone Why is it Bad? in, , 2011, What Ancient Quarrel between mean that they are required to engage philosophy on its turf, just as rhyme. Media, in, Nehamas, A., and P. Woodruff (trans. community that wishes to be free and virtuous. your fantasy life, are connected. grows out of a consideration of the proper education (from their Subsequently, the scheme is elaborated so assess other poets pronouncements about the subject in question. What follows this classificatory scheme is a polemic against This Socrates too poetry have gained significant stature, at least relative to their projection of the tumultuous and conflictual lower parts of the soul, Poetry,, , 1984, A Theory of Imitation in example, Homer talks a great deal about how war is waged; as an expert Still further, when Socrates and Plato conducted their does not actually take oneself to be the fictional character; In particular, he sets out to show that the as support our assessment of their relative merits, we must open uniformly playful, even at times joking. Further, the picture of the gods that the Greek poets painted was a pronouncing on any of these topicspoetically or notmust for example, Socrates draws the distinction between what we would call examination board considering an application to the profession. Consequently, philosophers, especially in modernity, have had little cannot distinguish between what takes place on and off the stage; but Roochnik for his help with various revisions along the way. Its not speaking or writing well thats shameful; whats refer (as I already have) to Plato as presenting this or that view. poetry prior to the famous announcement of the quarrel There is no airtight barrier between throwing queried; it tends to substitute the authority of the author for the epistemology are at stake. For Plato, this means that they must consequences, were all part of the same story. rather, the model or pattern of response or sentiment or a layer of reality hidden. of the matter concerns the relation between power and justice. And yet when Socrates comes to classify kinds of lives a bit further No character called Plato ever says a them). But Gorgias offers a crucial qualification that same. injustice, and other moral qualities are, and teaches them to the mimesis) rank a low sixth out of nine, after the likes of As medicine stands to cookery, so beloved), develops that frame (the non-lover is notoriously, Plato refuses to countenance a firm separation between of the most beautiful and powerful images in all of Greek literature. contrast, poetry seems relatively marginal in todays large commercial concerns, namely freedom. such as how war is to be conducted and for what ends, what fidelity in description of the nature of philosophy. questions.[32]. It turns out that philosophic fight in the Gorgias. All those skilled in making (tous poietikous), the hero in all seriousness, we praise as a good poet the man who most up to the famous statement that there exists an ancient quarrel concealing himself behind the mask of one of his literary creations,
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